Let’s Stop Talking About BIM

In this episode of Beyond 3D we talk about the misconceptions of BIM and how that has hindered adoption. Mike Shilton is a qualified landscaper architect and also the Product Director at Keysoft Solutions. We have a frank discussion about how we should think and talk about implementing 3D modeling, digital construction and all the different aspects of BIM to make it less intimidating.

“We tend to talk more about digital construction now, as the term and exchanging data between different parties requires you to do that through standard protocols exchange points. Those are the bits that are BIM. Those are the bits that define how we transfer the data, we communicate with each other.”

Listen to this episode: https://soundcloud.com/beyond3d/lets-stop-talking-about-bim

For more information on Keysoft Solutions visit www.keysoftsolutions.com

To read the full podcast transcript, see below.

Angela Simoes: Welcome to the Beyond 3D Podcast where we explore all things 3D and the important role that 3D data plays throughout the manufacturing process. Driving decisions throughout a product’s lifecycle. Here, we talk with industry analysts, business owners, developers and industry influencers and hear real stories that you can relate to and learn from and know which trends in technologies apply to your business. Join us as we go, Beyond 3D. Welcome everybody, to another episode of Beyond 3D Podcast. My name is Angela Simoes. We are very excited to have our guest here today. We’ll be talking about a term that everybody is very familiar with, BIM. Before we jump in, let me introduce our guests. We have Dave Opsahl, who is the Vice President of Corporate Development at Tech Soft 3D. Hi Dave.

Dave Opsahl: Hi Angela. Good to be with you.

Angela Simoes: Good to have you. We have Mike Shilton, Product Director at Keysoft Solutions, which is based in the UK. Welcome Mike.

Mike Shilton: Hi Angela. Good to meet you.

Angela Simoes: Before we jump into the topic, if you could just give us a brief overview of who you are and about Keysoft?

Mike Shilton: Yes. As Angela said, my name’s Mike Shilton. I’m a qualified landscaper architect. I’m also the Product Director at Keysoft Solutions where I’m responsible for a range of products on the traffic management and landscape design elements of design and implementation. I’m also the Chair of the Landscape Institute UK Digital Practice Group of which, BIM is a part of that. Creates the framework for that. Keysoft Solutions is a company founded back in 1986. We’ve been an all testing developing partner since then. We also provide solutions around the Autodesk Independent Vendor Solution, ISV. We do a bundled solution and we also do a stand-alone OEM solution, which is for landscape architects, which we’ll probably come onto later. Because of financial constraints, the OEM Officer offers a nice alternative to them. That’s a reasonable summary of where we are and who I am.

Angela Simoes: Okay. Great. This topic that we’re going to be discussing, BIM, is something that you come across every day. Just to preface our audience, we’re not going to be talking about BIM I think, in the traditional sense of what you normally hear and why you should do it and championing the term. Not saying it’s a bad thing either but, there are some misconceptions and that has presented also, some barriers. Mike, in your experience, what are some of the most common misconceptions about BIM that you’ve heard, when you’re talking to customers?

Mike Shilton: I think it’s in many cases, they don’t actually know why they’re implementing it or why they’re doing it. I think when we look at what the UK government set out as their agenda for BIM, the fundamental element was that most projects run over time and run over budget. Which is not good for commissioning new work and working on commissioning new clients. It’s not good for public purse either because the public purse is under considerable constraints. The purpose of BIM was to try and provide a focus for producing better performing whether that’s a landscape, building, bridge or whatever, it’s that element of it and to build into that, sustainability and carbon. I think what most people seem to be missing the whole point about BIM, it’s the whole lifecycle. BIM seems to be getting very focused at the moment and one of the misconceptions is that it’s all about the design and construction phase of the project.

If you look at any cost of any development, any capital expenditure, anything you buy, the actual physical cost of buying it is far outweighed by the long term maintenance of it. That’s where the big savings that BIM and the elements I’ll be talking about, come into play. Decisions you make at the design stage can have considerable cost implications over the lifetime of a project. I think, the problem we have with BIM, it’s focused very much on the design construction phase, which then starts to get into topics around software, what choice do we make, how do I implement it, how do I work with everybody else? The biggest misconception I think is that BIM has to be 3D. BIM doesn’t have to be 3D.

If it doesn’t answer a question, to me, it’s visualization. The key to 3D is to validate and inform where it’s appropriate. I think we talked in the past, about large scaled projects, especially infrastructure projects. When you’ve got several thousand assets you’re trying to model in a 3D world, the model becomes unworkable, whether that’s a road scheme, or a landscape scheme, a building scheme. You have to start compromising on the geometry. The best way to compromise that is have placeholders that describe the information without having to actually, physically, draw the geometry.

I think that’s some of the keys around the misconceptions of BIM. One of those is the choice of software. Because of certain vendors have been very successful at promoting their software as the BIM solution, there is a lot of misconception around what software you got to buy and losing track of the key element really is, what have we got to achieve and what have we got to deliver, just by buying a piece of software. One of the things often, when I do presentations, one of the things I always say is, “You can’t buy BIM in a box.” Just because I’ve got Word, it doesn’t make me a journalist.

Angela Simoes: Right.

Mike Shilton: It doesn’t make me an author.

Angela Simoes: That’s a great comparison. That’s a great analogy.

Dave Opsahl: Yeah

Mike Shilton: It’s that sort of, just by buying one piece of software doesn’t make you an expert in BIM. It doesn’t deliver BIM. I hope that gives you a flavor of some of the issues we come across on a day-to-day basis.

Angela Simoes: Yeah no, it does. It’s almost a challenge or a problem of the messaging around BIM was too good. It was so effective that now people… Sometimes I even wonder if people know what BIM stands for.

Mike Shilton: Yeah.

Angela Simoes: Over time, and if you, depending on which article you’re reading or which definition you’re looking at, the M can stand for something different. The I can stand for something different. You mentioned, gave a snapshot of it that you can’t buy BIM in a box. When you’re having conversations with customers and you say the word BIM, I imagine that they either say, “Yes, I need to do it. Where can I buy it?” Or, it sort of turns them off. What have you found in terms of trying to… because the transition from 2D to the 3D is something that’s important in the industry. How do you get around the misconception of BIM as a term to show people that, “Listen, you might already be doing it. Here’s how you complete the process.” What’s that dynamic like?

Mike Shilton: Yeah. Again, what we’re striving to move towards in the UK, and I think it’s an objective of the UK government as well, is to affectively drop the term BIM.

Angela Simoes: Interesting

Mike Shilton: As you said, there are lots of definitions around BIM. Everyone’s claiming BIM as their own. As you mentioned, people are starting to talk about BIM, Building Information Modeling. I’ve come across SIM, which is Site Information Modeling. WIM, as in Water Information Modeling.

LIM, Landscape Information Modeling.

I’m working for TIM, who’s Technology Information Modeling. Whatever. Everyone’s trying to get their own piece of the action. Because of all that, users just either have two concerns. One is the cost because they don’t know what they’re doing. They’re unclear what they’ve got to deliver. They don’t know where to start. All that confusion leads to either one of two things. One is, they do a lot of investments or bad judged investments and say it never worked for them. The second one is that they’ll lead to confusion and it leads to inertia. They don’t actually go anywhere. What we’re trying to picture BIM in the context of really is digital construction. If you start saying to people, “Let’s talk about digital construction,” and potentially, digital maintenance as well, that resonates with people because they’re using a digital system. They’re using a CAD solution or some sort of digital system anyway.

Applying that which they’ve been doing for the last 10, 20 years to their design processes, their implementation processes, resonates with people. We tended to talk more about digital construction now, as the term and exchanging data between different parties requires you to do that through standard protocols exchange points. Those are the bits that are BIM. Those are the bits that define how we transfer the data, we communicate with each other. That is just a small part of it. I often, refer to BIM now as the framework that delivers digital construction. That’s how we start. When we start talking to people in that mindset, it frees them up a little bit about this confusing term. They can understand that they can engage with digital construction because they are now. They can see potentially, how digital construction can lead to 3D printing, 3D processes, fabrication onsite, off-site. That their model can be used in a digital way and that resonates with them without getting into all the standards and terminology that goes with BIM.

Angela Simoes: Right, not this big, heavy monster that, oh my god, there’s all these things associated with BIM.

Mike Shilton: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Simoes: Needs an entry point. Like, “Oh, okay. I don’t have to invest 10s of thousands of dollars. I don’t have to hire all these new people.” We’re actually… some people are probably actually already doing it.

Mike Shilton: Yeah.

Angela Simoes: Okay.

Mike Shilton: I think like any element, there’s a cloud of mystery that is propagated by acronyms that come in. One of the things when I start talking to students, when we start presenting to students… Yeah. You’ve got these terms like, “I need Employer’s Information Requirements.” Which is fundamentally a brief. “What have I got to do?” As soon as you put in that context, “I need Employer’s Information Requirements is technically a brief,” people understand what a brief is. Sometimes you get this… The people then say this EIR, which is Employer’s Information Requirement. Then we talk about the BIM execution plan. Again, I just say to people, “Well, that’s just, how we’re going to do it. How we’re going to deliver this project.” It’s putting into those contexts and this sort of plain English I suppose, or plain language terms-

Angela Simoes: Right.

Mike Shilton: … is where we’re trying to position BIM. The plain language is something that’s been key over the last 12 months, again, to get rid of some of those, I suppose… It’s inevitable isn’t it? When you start to talk to anybody in a closed industry, you always introduce acronyms and everyone understands it’s inside the circle of friends, shall we call it, but outside of that, it becomes a mystery and almost impenetrable if you’re not careful.

Angela Simoes

Right. Another term that has surfaced that’s, I would say, similar to BIM or at least shares some components of it is digital twin. How would you say… Dave, I know that you have a lot of thoughts on digital twin as well and you have been following that. How would you compare the two? Digital twin and BIM. Do you get questions about that from customers? How do you explain it? Do you think that that’s something that… Is digital construction a part of a digital twin model? How would you explain that to people?

Dave Opsahl: I mean, this is fascinating because you can imagine this is a mirror conversation with somebody in the manufacturing space. I think that for me, the way that these conversations roll out is whether it’s someone on the construction side or the building side or someone on the manufacturing side is, is that, the difference… In manufacturing, the dilemma becomes is, a lot of people think digital mock-up, which is analogous to Mike’s description of focusing on the construction of the building. They tend to equate that with a digital twin. They think, “Isn’t that just a fancy name for a digital mock-up?” No, it’s not. It involves data that reflects the current state of a system. Whether that system’s a car or a airplane or a building and what its current state in operation. To Mike’s point earlier, he made a really good point about the fact that it’s the lifecycle cost that really matters more than anything and having data available to you in the right way is what makes those initiatives work. A digital twin to me, and BIM, are very analogous because I think of BIM the same way. If I want to really think about the benefit there, it’s all of the operational data that I can look at as an owner/operator throughout the lifecycle of the property.

Mike Shilton: Yeah. I think I agree with it there Dave. I think if you look at any other industry, I think there’s no way in the world they would go and commission 20,000 parts for a new car engine unless they’d actually prototyped it in a digital world first.

Dave Opsahl: Sure.

Mike Shilton: They’d make sure the parts fit. That the wear and tear, again, they are in atical industry, they don’t go and build planes without putting them in air tunnels and testing the hell out of them. When we come to construction, we often produce a 2D plan and elevation, some contract documentations, bills or quantities and give it to a contractor and say, “Right, build this please from this dis-palate information.”

Dave Opsahl: Yep.

Mike Shilton: Even the fashion industry now, marketing and fashion, all that is digital. They’ll show you different bottle designs in the virtual world. They’ll give you different labeling. All of that’s in the virtual before they commission a single penny in terms of manufacturing but when we come to construction, we just still work off 2D plans, 2D drawings, specifications and I think there’s a general acceptance that… Certain I heard the other day that I think the construction industry’s probably about 30 years behind the rest of all other manufacturing, advertising, automotive industries and they’ve got to catch up very, very quickly.

Dave Opsahl: Yeah. Well, you mentioned also one of the limiting factors sometimes in being able to construct those models is simply the overwhelming size of them.

Mike Shilton: Yeah.

Dave Opsahl: That’s true. It expands if you think about an individual building and the systems attached to it. Now let’s make it a campus.

Mike Shilton: Yeah.

Dave Opsahl: There’s common systems within the campus. How do I understand the interplay between all those things?

Mike Shilton: I think key to all this is that I in BIM, information. The data is becoming king. That data’s got two purposes. A, as a designer, you’re creating data but also, you’re working in the real world, which has got data attached to it and allowing that flow of data and the exchange of data and this concept of the internet of things where you actually, the digital model is extending that idea, the digital twin. The digital model is not only the one that is going to be built but once it’s built, if it’s built with sensors on it and it can be recorded and fed back into the digital model, your digital model becomes almost, the day to day analysis of your real world environment.

A great example of SIM recently is where they’re doing a 3D print of a bridge, stainless steel bridge over the canal in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands. They’ve actually digitally printed it. I think it’s an Autodesk project that been involved with that but that bridge will have sensors in it and those sensors will feed back into the digital models. Any of the engineers can come in on a daily basis and see the stresses and strains on the bridge in the real world, understand the issues well before they actual happening. It will start informing maintenance.

That total connectivity, that 360 look at construction design and management is where BIM becomes key because it’s making are that data can exchange your processes, your protocols, your standards, your frequency with of the exchange points. That’s what BIM defines in that overall 360 framework.

Dave Opsahl: I agree. I think that one of the unfortunate things is, is that you just described or we just discussed BIM perfectly I think. What happens is, get marketers that latch on to three letter acronyms and attach it to a product and instead of it having its rightful place as… BIM is a philosophy about how to implement processes and how to deal with data as Mike was just describing.

You’re doing it today. Companies do it today. It’s like manufacturers before computers came along. They designed their plans without computers. It’s just a different way of doing it, and a better way. Key LM’s got the same problem.

Angela Simoes: That’s the, I was going to say, the same thing Dave, that it’s ironic that BIM was actually conceived to help the problem that you were mentioning Mike, that the AEC world is 30 years behind other industries when it comes to adopting technology and things like that. BIM I think, was meant to help that and bring AEC into the modern age if you will. I think it did have a positive impact and it did help in some regard but then the pendulum swung so far to the other side that now it’s almost acting as a barrier.

Mike Shilton: What I find interesting is we’ll often find with people, they listen to conversations like we’re having here until it resonates but it’s, “Where do I go now? What are my next steps?” Go back to the office. What do I start doing? One of the key things that we’ve talked about are, if you’re going to implement BIM, there’s two things got to understand I think. One is, what clients do you want to work with? Because, your BIM strategy, as a company, needs to align to your business strategy.

If you want to go and work with IBM, look at what IBM are doing, how they’ve implemented things and what are they doing, and you start aligning your skillsets and your knowledge to align with their processes. If you start to think about BIM, I think it’s understanding what clients you want to work with, what do they do and what do they see BIM or their digital construction process, to be?

Then start trying to think about, “How do I align myself over the next 12 months, two years, three years?” Whatever your business plan is to get there. I’ve always said BIM is not like a light switch. Today, we’re not doing BIM, tomorrow we are. Switch the lights on to now we’re doing BIM. It’s a journey. People went from drawing boards to CAD over a period of 10, 15 years.

I think the jump between CAD and BIM is going to be a lot quicker but, we have got to start taking those small steps. We often call them BIM wins. A BIM win is just a… On this project, I’m going to try and look at 3D or look at the data exchange points. Don’t try and do the whole lot in one go. As a takeaway, I often say to people, “Think about that. Small steps to get to the bigger picture.”

The second one is, understand the deliverables. Very often, people engage in a BIM project and it’s a conversation I have all the time where people have found and said, “Okay Mike, I’ve been asked to get involved with a BIM project. What do I do now?” I say, “Well, what have I got to deliver?” “I don’t know.” “Well go and find what you got to deliver. Come back to me, we’ll have the conversation.”

When people say BIM, people go running off to the hills saying, “I do BIM. I do BIM.” Without actually asking what they have to deliver. Now, if somebody said to you tomorrow, “Okay, I want you to build a new building,” you wouldn’t go off and build a building. You’d ask, “Well, what type of building do I want? Is it a school? Is it a university? Is it a research establishment?” It’s research. Okay. Is it going to house 50 people, 500 people, 5,000? You ask lots of questions.

When people mention BIM, they just say, “Okay,” and walk away and panic. They don’t ask questions so they don’t know what they’re going to deliver. This adds to the confusion. You’ve got lots and lots of people running around in the dark, trying to put together a jigsaw where you haven’t even got a picture to go with.

Angela Simoes: Do you think it’s an intimidation factor like, “Oh, I should know what BIM is so I don’t want to ask any questions because I don’t want to seem stupid?”

Mike Shilton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Simoes: It’s interesting that people would just, “Okay. I’ll go off and figure it out.”

Mike Shilton: Yeah. I’ve got one or two people have said that. “I can’t go back to my clients.” I suppose you have one opportunity don’t you, in a meeting. Your first project kickoff meeting. You got the architect there, the engineer there, the planner, the client. They’ll all say, “Can you deliver a BIM,” and everyone’s nodding their head, “Yes, we can deliver BIM.” It’s like the emperor’s new clothes or the elephant in the room. Everyone’s saying yes but they don’t actually know what they’re doing. Everyone walks out of that room thinking, “Okay. We’ve got to deliver BIM. What do we do now?”

Without actually say actually, “What are we going to deliver? How are we going to deliver that? What do we need to achieve all the deliverables?” At that first meeting. When you say people walk away from it and therefore, because they’ve had that opportunity and they haven’t said anything, they then walk around behind closed doors trying to fathom out a strategy and fit that together and they’ve almost lost that chance to say, “Well, actually, can we define BIM? What does it mean on this project? What do we want to achieve and how are we going to achieve it?”

Angela Simoes: It’s funny. You mentioning that reminds me of an example of a friend of mine who was working for a civil engineering and design firm and they were out. He was with his boss. They were having a conversation with a potential client. The client was saying all the different things that they were looking for in a firm. They said, “I can’t find anybody that does BIM. Do you guys do BIM?”

His boss said, “Yes. Absolutely. We do BIM.” He says, “All right then. Let’s have the meeting.” They get back to the office and my boss tells my friend, “Okay, you have to figure out how we do BIM.”

Mike Shilton: Funny.

Angela Simoes: He promised it just to win the opportunity to pitch the client and really had no idea what he was promising. It’s exactly to your point.

Mike Shilton: It’s rather odd though isn’t it? The answer’s yes. What’s the question?

Angela Simoes: Exactly. Exactly. It’s not that we need to stop talking about BIM but it’s talking about it in a different way and not right out of the gate. You don’t open the conversation with, “Let’s do BIM,” or, “How do you do BIM,” or, “Where can I get BIM?” That sort of thing. It’s funny that we’re saying it’s about how you talk about it when it comes to construction projects or anything like that.

It is a real problem right, with how people have been using the term and misunderstanding the term and that has translated into a lot of barriers in the industry. What would be your advice to people in terms of having the conversation? You already alluded to that. Start asking questions. Don’t just go off and try and figure it out.

Mike Shilton: Ask more questions.

Angela Simoes: Yeah. One thing, we are coming up on our time but I did want to get your take on something that we didn’t actually preface before. When we were talking about the fact that the industry is a bit behind in terms of technology adoption. It made me think about some of the projects you see on the news, at least here in the Bay area. It’s two projects in San Francisco specifically where they’re brand new structures. One is a very tall building. Another one is a bus terminal where, for all intensive purposes, they should have been designed and built using the BIM process.

Digital designs and the testing and simulation and all of that. Yet, they’re built and before they’re even fully used, the building is starting to sink. The bus terminal ceiling is cracking. You’ve seen some of this happen in other areas too and so and, the conversations over dinner, amongst friends or even colleagues is, how can that happen in today’s day and age when people are using such sophisticated technology to design these things and build these things?

Not that that relates to BIM specifically but what do you think is happening in those situations? This might be a little bit of a loaded question but I’m just curious to get your take on what you think might be happening here. It seems to be happening more frequently than it should, at least from a layman’s perspective.

Mike Shilton: Yeah. I think design building’s a very difficult elements. That’s one of the challenges we have because generally, when you put in a design build contract, you very often start putting the spade in the ground before some of the elements are actually being fully rationalized and agreed in some cases because of the timeframes you’ve almost… These large contractors over here offer design build solutions and they are almost start to dig out the foundations before they’ve actually finalized the footprints. Once they got a footprint, they then start building.

That is one of the big challenges that we’re trying to… I don’t think I got an answer to it just yet. Trying to get people to hold back a bit. Again, clients want to get the thing… depending on how funding works, very often, funding has a timeframe, a window of opportunity. Getting the first, as I used to work in landscape design, sometimes, just getting the actually first digger onsite and doing some excavation means at least the project’s got to continue and finish.

It can’t get cut if they’ve already started on it, or less chance it being cut halfway through. We’ve almost got to expect the clients to be a little bit more… I think part of it is educating the clients actually, and make them aware that an extra $50,000, $100,000 even $250,000 spent earlier in the process, will reap rewards further down the line.

There’s nothing worse than finding you spent $5 million on a project and somebody comes back to you and says, “We need an extra $10 million,” and it’s going to take months longer. Or, you’ve already spent $5. Now, if you already spent a quarter of a million, it’s easier to pull out of the project or cut your cloth accordingly, at that point, rather than what you’ve committed yourself. I think it’s getting clients to step back a little bit, even getting the budget holders to sometimes be a little bit more practical in what they’re trying to get the contractors or the implementers, whoever they may be, to start as we said, virtualizing it first. Test the model. Prove it can work.

It’s almost that proof. Prove it can work before you build it. At the moment, we still depend very much on gut instincts. I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I know I can deliver it. Well, that doesn’t mean that on this site you know exactly what’s happening so get in the right information up front. Biggest issue we often have is services. We don’t often know where the services are. Cabling runs, etc. so people suddenly, the digger goes in the ground and half the city goes dead because they’ve cut the main’s cable. Something like that. Those sort of things are still happening, even in this so-called digital world because we’re trying to, sometimes, run before we can walk.

Angela Simoes: That’s a good point. Everybody wants to finish under budget whether it’s the building owners or the contractor firm. They want to win the business and be the first.

Mike Shilton: Yeah. Building smarter. I got some figures a few years ago now. Every $1 you spend in preparation, you can save 20 times that during construction and 60 times that through the lifecycle of a project. People often think, again, because we’re very focused on the capital expenditure, the actual cost of building it, we rush to get that done. We’re not actually thinking about actually, is this the right solution?

You think about a highway. The cost of building a highway is insignificant compared to the ongoing maintenance of that highway over the 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years that it’s in place.

Angela Simoes: As a citizen, I would rather the city spend an extra couple hundred thousand dollars or however much it would cost to ensure the testing and the model and whatever it takes, to make sure that this bridge isn’t going to collapse, than my tax dollars be spent building a bridge that then has to be rebuilt at an even greater cost 10 or 20 years down the road. Yeah.

Mike Shilton: It’s due diligence isn’t it?

Angela Simoes: Right. Right.

Mike Shilton: Go built by a new company who are actually doing due diligence. Understanding where it is, what it’s doing and the future prospects but when we start constructing, we don’t often take into account… I’ve heard a term so often being used now, which is this value engineered. Value engineering which is basically, let’s cut the costs.

Value engineered. If you talk to anybody in construction industry, it’s all about value engineering. Which is a polite way of saying, we’ve got to save $200,000 on this project. How are we going to do it? Rather than saying, well actually, if we do make that 200,000 pounds or dollars saving now, what’s the implications for the future? We going to put in infrastructure that may need to be ripped out in 50 years time and cost s that $300,000. Sometimes spend a little bit more now can be better in the long term.

Angela Simoes: Well, if I encounter a firm that wants to do value engineering, I think I’ll walk away. Dave, it sounded like you had a comment?

Dave Opsahl: No. It’s funny. I was just thinking about the point Mike was making about taking the time to make sure that you have it right at the beginning and what you can save down the way is just such a typical problem. Again, whether we’re talking construction or manufacturing. The example that flew into my head was Boeing arguably has one of the more mature PLM processes and digitalization processes out there for manufacturing products and yet, in spite of all that, they broke one of their own rules.

Dave Opsahl: No. It’s funny. I was just thinking about the point Mike was making about taking the time to make sure that you have it right at the beginning and what you can save down the way is just such a typical problem. Again, whether we’re talking construction or manufacturing. The example that flew into my head was Boeing arguably has one of the more mature PLM processes and digitalization processes out there for manufacturing products and yet, in spite of all that, they broke one of their own rules.

Implementing a single point of failure in a control system and you’ve got a airplane now that they’re having trouble selling. People have canceled orders and everything else. PLM or BIM don’t prevent you from making bad decisions. Hopefully, they give you a framework for reducing the number but people… This is a long journey. Projects like Mike works on can take five to 10 years, right Mike?

Mike Shilton: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Opsahl: To get to the operating stage. People have annual budgets and put a lot of undo pressure on the wrong places in the design process. That’s a good piece of advice from Mike I think, for anybody listening to the podcast.

Angela Simoes: Excellent. I think that’s a good place to end it because we have reached our time. Very interesting conversation. I hope it resonates with our listeners and that they take your advice Mike, and change their conversation a bit and not be so intimidated. BIM is not something that’s intimidating but it is a process. It’s not something that you can do overnight. Thank you so much for your time Mike. We really appreciate you being here with us. Thank you Dave. Thanks everybody out there, for listening to another episode of Beyond 3D.

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